Saturday, March 29, 2008

Geert Wilders - Fitna

So, I decided to watch the movie that has caused so much uproar (or, at least, what they've got on You Tube).

It's not particularly well done, kind of a montage of news footage with text overlays protesting against the violence we see from Muslims, and a call for reform.


The argument goes like this:
  1. The Koran tells Muslims to kill unbelievers
  2. Muslims are killing unbelievers
  3. The unbeliever who made this film would prefer to not be killed (the film references the last filmmaker to complain, who was killed).
  4. The filmmaker asks Muslims to edit the Koran to remove these offensive parts.
I guess that's all a materialistic world view can produce. "Hey, please don't kill me, mmm 'k?"

What are the theological points?
  1. The Koran claims to be the Word of God
  2. Either this is true, or it is not true
  3. If it is true, then editing the Koran is not the solution -- you're not going to change God's mind by misrepresenting what He has said. And an omnipotent God is going to see His Word goes out.
  4. If it is false, then the whole thing goes out the window. No need to pick and choose what parts to keep.
So, the solution is to convert Muslims from Islam. Either to atheism, or Christianity.

7 comments:

GCT said...

"No need to pick and choose what parts to keep."

Oh the irony.

nedbrek said...

That's kind of my point. People want Christians to change the Bible because they disagree with it. If the Bible is God's Word, we shouldn't change it.

GCT said...

Right, so go out and start stoning adulterers and keeping slaves! You've got to stop with the irony, you're killing me here.

nedbrek said...

Open your Bible to the Table of Contents. Look for the titles Old Testament, and New Testament.

If in doubt, see Hebrews 8:13.

Islam doesn't have the benefit of this. There is nothing in the Koran which says, "this applies" and "this does not".

GCT said...

Do you think that you aren't bound by the OT? Jesus certainly thought he was and preached that the rules must be followed to the letter. In fact, he was rather fundamental about it.

BTW, you do realize that Islam uses both the OT and the NT, right?

Also, there's nothing in the Koran that tells you "this applies" and "this does not," but there's also nothing in the OT or NT. In the end, you do exactly what you criticize Muslims for doing, which is pick and choose which parts of the Bible should be followed and which should not. Hence, the irony.

nedbrek said...

The Old Testament commandments must be used rightly (1 Timothy 1:8-9). Their purpose is to bring about the knowledge of sin, and inform us of God's nature (which we should strive to conform ourselves to).

Jesus said we must keep the whole law if we are to earn eternal life. But that's the same point. You can't keep the whole law. You can't earn it.

On applying the OT:
Hebrews 8:13 "In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away."

The context is in the previous verses:
verse 7: "For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

and verse 12: "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

The first Covenant (Testament) brings about the knowledge of sin. The new Covenant (Testament) tells us how our sins are paid for.

I encourage you to read that whole chapter, and even the whole book of Hebrews. It is an excellent source of information on how to handle the Old Testament.

GCT said...

"The Old Testament commandments must be used rightly (1 Timothy 1:8-9). Their purpose is to bring about the knowledge of sin, and inform us of God's nature (which we should strive to conform ourselves to)."

I fail to see how you are getting that interpretation from the passage cited. It says that the law is for unrighteous people, people that don't follow the law IOW. It simply says that the law was written so that those who don't naturally follow it will know it.

"Jesus said we must keep the whole law if we are to earn eternal life. But that's the same point. You can't keep the whole law. You can't earn it."

Exactly. god has set up unreasonable expectations and demands on us. Your own words condemn god.

"The context is in the previous verses:
verse 7:"

Funny you should point out verse 7, considering it explicitly says that god is not perfect.

"The first Covenant (Testament) brings about the knowledge of sin. The new Covenant (Testament) tells us how our sins are paid for."

There's a new testament, but not new laws of god.